The Two Generals’ Problem

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  • Published on Aug 12, 2019
  • Time to tell a story about idempotency, computer science, and the Night of the Multiple Orders. • Sponsored by Dashlane -try 30 days for free at: www.dashlane.com/tomscott
    MORE BASICS: thexvid.com/p/PL96C35uN7xGLLeET0dOWaKHkAlPsrkcha
    Written by Sean M Elliott and Tom Scott
    Directed by Tomek
    Graphics by Mooviemakers www.mooviemakers.co.uk/
    Audio mix by Haerther Productions haerther.net/
    Thanks to Dashlane for sponsoring the video! If you're techie enough to watch this video, you should be using a password manager. Get a 30-day free trial at dashlane.com/tomscott
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Comments • 3 043

  • Tom Scott
    Tom Scott  6 months ago +3853

    Yes, I had help with the graphics for this series. There's no way I'd have animated that myself! On that note, thanks to Dashlane for sponsoring and helping me hire an animator: their free trial link is www.dashlane.com/tomscott

    • Caleb Gonsalves
      Caleb Gonsalves 11 days ago

      We in India have an option to call the restaurant and the delivery driver so that solves the two generals problem here...

    • deltor 12
      deltor 12 25 days ago

      Fire signals to show u received the message. So what can be the fire signal for computers

    • Артем
      Артем 29 days ago

      Also if you are a real computer nerd than you surely must know that the weakest point of a system is a human being. So storing all passwords in one place under one probably not complicated master password since you probably will enter quiet often - is the dumbest thing to do!

    • Clockwork Games
      Clockwork Games Month ago

      Use just eat not deliveroo - its more ethical as well as this event

    • Ana Paula
      Ana Paula Month ago

      Tom Scott send 10 messengers or more so that the probabilities are in your favor and then attack, it’s likely that at least one will make it, checkmate mate

  • Карасик Ерохин

    What a moron will pay for some obscure new password manager when you can use old and trusted keepassxc?

  • Jason Sun
    Jason Sun 4 days ago

    Two messengers meet in the valley, signs a note saying order was received, then comes back with a note with both messengers signature. PROBLEM SOLVED.

    • TheRassad
      TheRassad 2 days ago

      What if after signing, GenB's messenger is killed? Then GenB receives no confirmation and wont attack. GenA dies...

  • Rui Pratz
    Rui Pratz 6 days ago

    Just use smoke signals

  • St0ner1995
    St0ner1995 7 days ago

    a possible "solution" to the two generals problem. send 3 messages with an identical identifier (so that it's clear that it is the same message), respond to each individual message with it's own acknowledge, respond to those individual responses with an acknowledge and as long as those are all done at slightly different intervals (say a few milliseconds for the app, or 15 minutes for the problem itself), the chances of all 3 failing are greatly reduced, though not zero

  • samkachar
    samkachar 9 days ago

    Not bad videos, but having been a computer engineer for many many years now I can say there are many many times huge issues caused by a single person.

  • Junior
    Junior 9 days ago

    I think the solution to it would be that both of the generals know that the only logical thing to do would be to attack immediately right when they pop into existence, since without doing that it would be unsolvable.

  • jrw
    jrw 9 days ago

    Why would anyone order food to their home when they can cook a good meal in half the time for 1/10th the cost?

  • Sdsdfdu
    Sdsdfdu 9 days ago +1

    "a single human error is never the root cause"
    Didn't Cloudflare's servers break all because of one single regular expression?

    • Chapi
      Chapi 7 days ago

      Still company's fault for not catching the faulty regex before going into production (code reviews, stress tests, etc)

  • Stanley Wilcox
    Stanley Wilcox 11 days ago

    My solution which is dumb but would probably work. When each general thinks they’ve received a lot of acknowledgments, say 7 or 8, they just go.

  • tristan 123455
    tristan 123455 11 days ago

    Why did I read the title as genitals lmao...

  • Thomas Birtles
    Thomas Birtles 11 days ago

    I’d just send a messenger to the other general, and tell him to send a messenger at a specific time to confirm the time to attack, then both parties would send a messenger.

    • 007 Dragon
      007 Dragon 10 days ago

      I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but how would General B sending a messenger at a time specified by General A help? When the messenger sent by General B arrives on time exactly as General A expected, General B still wouldn't know if the messenger got through. This is a problem because at this moment, General B does not know whether General A knows that General B knows what time to attack. IF General A does not know that General B knows what time to attack, General A will not attack at the planned time. P.s. it also does not help to send both messengers at the same time, as one of them will not have any new useful information to pass on / transmit. Sorry if this was confusing, feel free to clarify your idea if I misunderstood it:)

  • Jason Gilliland
    Jason Gilliland 12 days ago

    The real problem is that you need at least 5 more armies or you'll never conquer Byzantium!

  • Ewan Biesinger
    Ewan Biesinger 13 days ago

    What if they need the messenger to come back so they know that the message has received

  • Anirudh Panguluri
    Anirudh Panguluri 14 days ago

    Says certain delivery app in beginning just a couple seconds later shows news articles accusing deliveroo of unethical practices.

  • Nate Youmans
    Nate Youmans 14 days ago

    Could army A send two messengers over then at the halfway point, one of them turn back to give army A the all-clear, while the other messenger delivers the message?

  • Desu Vult
    Desu Vult 14 days ago

    A. Send a message announcing a time of attack and ask for them to send a messenger back as proof
    B. Sends a message back saying that they've read the message
    A. Send a message announcing that the decision is final and to send a messenger back as proof, but this time without expecting a response.
    If you get a message back, then you just attack at the determined time
    A and B are the 2 generals

  • Kuriii
    Kuriii 15 days ago

    Just send three, if one makes it, the B sends another back, if that one makes it the other sends one back. Then they know they both recieved it and the time is right.

  • Vikrant Panday
    Vikrant Panday 16 days ago

    Well I mean if you have three acknowledgements I think it's fair to assume the other got the message.


    If A send B a message then A wont know B got the message but if they did and sent an acknowledgment back then A got the message but B doesn't know that. So now both A and B know to go at 8 since As the one that made the message and also received an acknowledgment and B got the message and sent it back but even if they didn't know A got it, A still was the one that made the time so they'd go anyway. Just to be safe, A can send another acknowledgment and if B gets it, they'll know both sides are going to go at 8.

  • Yoovie
    Yoovie 17 days ago +1

    Mans looks like the hobbit

  • ChokeNation
    ChokeNation 17 days ago

    what about quantum entaglement? uwu

  • Angus Campbell
    Angus Campbell 18 days ago

    Smoke. Done.

  • nikoladd
    nikoladd 18 days ago

    Here's a computer science suggestion: Use transactional promise driven model and thus make your confirmations explicit. In the same way actual payments work.(i.e. reserve and confirm) While the theoretical problem has no guaranteed solution the practical problem does have reasonably guaranteed solutions and that app was poorly designed.

  • Viking Ninja
    Viking Ninja 18 days ago

    That example doesn't seem to work because they would just need A to tell B 8pm, B acknowledges, then A acknowledges. Both armys know the other knows to attack at 8pm.

    • Michael Betts
      Michael Betts 16 days ago

      What if A's acknowledgement never gets to B. B doesn't attack because it wasn't acknowledged, and A attacks because it was acknowledged. The problem is not knowing the time. It is that there is no way for both parties to be 100% certain that the other party is certain, and will attack. One "solution" (stuff like TCP) is A sends B an initial message repeatedly until it receives an acknowledgement, and B then starts sending acknowledgements to A, until A's response is received. Every time A receives a return message from B it responds that it received the acknowledgement. B knows that the chain is over with the final message, and A knows that it is over when it stops receiving acknowledgements from B, but this could also happen if every acknowledgement messenger from B was killed. In the real world it is unlikely that every messenger from B would be "killed" via some random chance and not some detectable error in the connection, but it could happen if something like a microwave being turned on interferes with a wireless connection, and A is programmes to think it can close the communication after 5 seconds without a response, and other traffic is still getting through.

  • Konstantin Führ
    Konstantin Führ 18 days ago

    I actually came up with a better solution : Dont attack and dont make war at all :D.

  • Wreck-It Rolfe
    Wreck-It Rolfe 18 days ago

    Imagine paying again after it's said you've already paid.

  • T C
    T C 19 days ago +1

    dont show up with two armies, there done.

  • Luner Link
    Luner Link 19 days ago

    just send 1 person from each general at the same time

  • Δημήτρης Ντάβος

    what if they walk to the castle?
    the other side will see them and walk aswell

  • X.Illuminati.XGamer Productions

    Possible solution to the Two General Problem.
    One general sends two messengers to the other general. One messenger stays back before it passes the castle, and the other messenger passes the castle. The messenger that stayed back will watch the other messenger pass the castle, and will be able to tell if the messenger passing the castle has been killed or has safely passed the castle.
    The messenger that passed the castle would have a time for the generals to attack. The messenger that watched would report back to the general who had sent the two.

  • WalrusWarlord
    WalrusWarlord 20 days ago +2

    Have both go at the same time, and meet in the center, thus letting them both confirm a time, and success

    • Michael Betts
      Michael Betts 16 days ago

      And then one gets killed walking back and the other doesn't see it. Also that isn't solving the two generals problem, because it's a computer science problem, and so there is no middle, the castle represents anytuing with a non 100% success rate, like a wireless connection between two computers, that could be broken temporarily by noise from something else, like a microwave for example.

  • Like a Bossk 627
    Like a Bossk 627 20 days ago +1

    Can we get an f for our fallen messengers

  • D Parker
    D Parker 20 days ago

    I was working at a burger restaurant at the time that this issue was happening. 7 drivers arrived with the request for the same meal. You were smart for recognizing this issue initially and ordering one order

  • Catriona
    Catriona 20 days ago +2

    Best solution: Ignore the generals and go to the local pub for some food. :P

  • Combine Echo
    Combine Echo 20 days ago +1

    Morse code via smoke

  • Jesus From Hyrule
    Jesus From Hyrule 21 day ago

    I what if u send someone with one person behind and another behind them etc. so that when one gets confirmation they can give the army info right before the others get to The Valley ? I can’t quite explain

  • Konstantin Führ
    Konstantin Führ 21 day ago +1

    Solution for the problem is : arrange a certain time /sun stand ( other certain events that are global and recognizable to both armies ) and trust ;).

  • Wood Kidneys
    Wood Kidneys 21 day ago +1

    Realistically, couldn’t the other general just fire off a cannon or two in acknowledgement to the letter? I understand I am ignoring the computer science portion of this, but I came here for generals and armies and I will leave on those terms.

  • InfinityBoss
    InfinityBoss 21 day ago +2

    Possible solution: One general could send a letter saying what time to attack. It would also say to shoot a flaming arrow in the air if they got the message and if they agree. If one general sees the arrow then the other would also shoot an arrow signaling that they both agree to attack at a specific time.

    • OneObjective
      OneObjective 18 days ago

      The problem operates under the assumption that the two armies cannot actually see eachother

  • Random Ashe
    Random Ashe 21 day ago

    Surely after 300 messengers confirming it, I don't REALLY need to confirm the 301st.

  • William Klueg
    William Klueg 21 day ago

    The two generals problem might be solved by sending a letter every day for a thousand days that says "Once every day for the next one thousand days (more or less depending on how arbitrarily difficult the valley is to pass) send a letter in confirmation of this letter. Mark down instances of letters getting through in your correspondence. On a specific date (at least 1,000 days in the future) we will attack, pending your confirmation."
    If it is reasonably possible for a letter to get through the dangerous valley this will work. If it is not then no coordinated attack is possible and no attack will take place.

  • Kyle
    Kyle 22 days ago

    I was like signal fires

  • E030E03
    E030E03 22 days ago

    Using flags in the general problem is badically using quantum entanglement

  • Ay lmoa
    Ay lmoa 22 days ago

    ...There is castle in the middle of the valley... *Sun Tzu left the group*

  • canis pugnator
    canis pugnator 22 days ago

    Could the general write we will attack at 12pm light a fire If you received it or we will not attack

  • Red Ace
    Red Ace 22 days ago

    Clicked this video genuinely thinking this was a hypothetical war paradoxical scenario, like if The Metatron and Vsauce2 collaborated or something. It's apparently not.

    I can't say I disliked it.

  • roftar
    roftar 22 days ago

    Didn't they create war horn for that exact purpose?

  • Tobey
    Tobey 22 days ago +2

    What if I actually wanted to order the same thing twice in a short ammount of time?

  • azurephantom100
    azurephantom100 23 days ago

    my phone's messenger app is bugged where it will receive the same text message from someone over and over again. i didnt know about the two generals problem till now. though i figured out that is what was happening my phone. it was getting the message but the "i got it" signal wasnt going through so the other person's phone kept sending the message it didnt show for them but i would get the same text more then 20 times within a few seconds

  • MadHatters7120
    MadHatters7120 23 days ago

    I thought this would be a historical/military themed video judging by the title and the thumbnail.

  • Michael van Panhuys
    Michael van Panhuys 23 days ago

    but the armies have the high ground, shouldn't they easily be able to win?

  • Jblockminer MC
    Jblockminer MC 23 days ago

    The solution to the problem of the two generals is simple, just have one army advance very slowly so the other army can easily see it’s going to attack and join the fight in time.

  • catman 15
    catman 15 23 days ago

    wht dont the generals just send a menssager in a route that doesnt pass right in the place they are trying to counquer

  • TheDeadlypanda 12
    TheDeadlypanda 12 23 days ago

    Why doesn't the messanger return?

  • Sezlych yeeyee
    Sezlych yeeyee 23 days ago

    wait just send multiple messengers with the same thing

  • Leonardo Brito
    Leonardo Brito 24 days ago

    But and if an army 1 send a messenger to army 2, then back to the middle of the valley with a messenger of army 2, then the two messegers go to oposite sides with the 8PM proposed time? Both messengers knew the other were not killed, because they left the middle spot seeing the other, and if both were attacked and die any army will attack, because they dont recieve the time of attack, so its just send another messenger and repeat until the messengers dont die...

  • Brian Roden
    Brian Roden 24 days ago

    You only need to stop at 5

  • Snoop Dogg
    Snoop Dogg 24 days ago

    Why not just use smoke signals?

  • Derek Whittom
    Derek Whittom 24 days ago

    I like this. Got into an argument with a coworker once about a similar situation, where the logic had thought there was a failure, but there wasn't.

  • King Le
    King Le 24 days ago

    Speaking about protecting your information from hackers and glitches I’d like to talk about today’s sponsor Nord VPN.... what’s that? Today’s sponsor is dashlane?